Our Debt To Islam - the fallout (part 1)

I knew that posting an article with the title Our Debt To Islam on September 7 would cause a kerfuffle, that was the idea. Now part 2 of the plan: post my responses to the hundred odd comments so the reasonable commentators can be pleased that they added somnething to the discussion while the nutters (especially the one who said I only wrote my article because I'm angry at God for giving me a small willie) can perhaps feel that next time they will either check their facts or their sanity or else just keep quiet. I doubt it though, being nutters they will come right back hitting the keyboard without a second's thought. Anyway with so many comments and many of them quite I decided to post my responses as seperate articles, here are the first batch featuring: Donald H, Don Sween, Porgie T, Dr. Reid Cornwell, Todd L, Kevin go lightly, Lori C, Sandy Knauer, Carol Voigts, Clarke M, Mandi G, Rome S., Crazy Celebrity, Bert Bigelow, Charles M., Abu Tarleyb, Charles A. B, John Knight, Joe C., manoj sanyal. I have tried to make sure everybody gets a lionk back to their own gather page. If anyone has been missed I apologise .

Donald H. commented Sep 9, 2006

Well said.....! Thank you...! Not all Muslims are of the fanatical type..! many are decent, wondeful folks...to brand them as being what the radicals are is just unfair & not right!

Very poorly reasoned.

Poorly reasoned Don, I wonder why. No don't tell me, let me guess - because I do not confirm your prejudices?

. commented Sep 9, 2006

As the line goes, not all Arabs, and those of the Islamic faith are radical Islamic Terrorists, but all terrorists seem to be radical Arab Islamic fundamentalists. You obviously have not heard of personal responsiblity and self policing, or you would not have put up this diatribe.

Myself...until Arabs and those of the Islamic faith begin to police their own, until they STOP FUNDING these radical groups, they SHOULD BE LUMPED TO GETHER, SHOULD BE SUSPECTED until proven otherwise....you maybe not like profiling, but my RIGHT TO LIVE FREELY AND SAFELY outweighs your inconvenience....get over it.

Dr. Reid Cornwell commented Sep 9, 2006

Don,

Your criticism is glaringly devoid of support. Could you, more importantly, would you share your logic?

Reid

Ian,Ian,Ian, I would like to address the first 3 or so paragraphs of you article but before I do I would also like to commend you on the remainder...I have always been a proponent of the saying " Religion no matter what form or persuasion is nothing more than the opiate of the masses" Who said that you may ask....Me... Now as for the muslim aspect of your article...I totally agree with you on many aspects but at the same time you have to, or the world has to I should say, realise that as much as you might hate to group all segments of a race or religion into one, in order for the safety of the masses certain precautions must be taken..I'm gonna cut to the chase and skip the rhetoric...I've always thought that regardless of the predjudice be it crimminal profiling or racial or religious, or the so-called illegal wiretapping etc, etc, all the shit the liberals denounce, that if your not a crimminal if you are a law-abiding, tax paying, working class citizen why should you be worried They are not looking for you !!! Only the crimminals should be worried and face it isn't that what we want!!!...You should be happy that law-enforcement/Gov't is doing whatever it is that is necessary to protect you and your family even if in the literal sense of the Constitution your rights might be slightly infringed upon. Deal with it America and quit whining, because of that one innocent-looking person being frisked at the airport your ass might just get off the plane at your destination safe and sound !! By the way great article!!!

Todd L. commented Sep 9, 2006

Kevin go lightly commented Sep 9, 2006

Ian,

Good piece, well executed.

Porgy,

So the IRA in Ireland were really Muslems? And we should hold all Christians responsible for their acts?

First, I don't think people should be slamming other peoples religions. Everyone has the right to believe in what they want. I have friends from all faiths. On 9/11 I was working in a casino in Missouri. I worked with and am friends with lots of Muslims. I have talked with all of them abut that day. Most of them are hoping that with the help of other countries they will be able to take thier families back home, even if just to visit and feel safe there. Several of the men had brought the wives and children to America so they could live where they felt safe. They were all worried about thier friends and family still living there. They have all told me stories about what it was like to live in there homelands, both good and bad. Second a Terrorist can be from any Religion or background. What does a Terrorist look like anyway? I don't know, you don't know. Anybody could decide to become one. We need to protect our Country even from some of our own people. Remember the Oklahoma City Bombing. They were from close to my hometown. Remeber this the next time you go through airport security and you hear someone ask the emploees doing thier job "Do I look like a terrorist" Please ask that person what a terrorist looks like? I am sure the airport security people would Love to ask them this question but are not allowed to, so ask it for them. No I do not work at an airport but have talked to people who do and they are asked this question often. They are not allowed to ask them what a Terrorist looks like. I am sure you would make the Airports Screeners day by asking it for them.

Sandy (missing martin) Knauer commented Sep 9, 2006

Ian, you had me at synthetic emotion . Okay, you've had me for years, but that sealed the deal. You always deliver 100%, research, thought, and great writing, and I appreciate that. It helps also that I can't remember ever not agreeing with your point of view.

Todd L. Great Comment. Thanks! Excuse my typo's in prvious comment.

Thanks for the comment Lori

Carol Voigts commented Sep 9, 2006

"Who put our oil under their sand?" In the world from the beginning, we've had the havenots vs. the haves, as well as groups who covet something another group has. The groups could be religious, ethnic, or national. They could become guerrillas to get what they want or they could become terrorists, or if they're powerful enough, they could just go take it by starting a war or invasion. They might start something because the other group offends their sensibilities, or because they need what ever the other group has. They might not like taxation without representation. It's been going on since the beginning of civilization . We demonize the ones doing the taking if we don't agree, (Moslem) but don't get too upset if we agree with their POV (Irish). So it has been ever thus. 1000 years from now I'm sure history writers will not take sides anymore than our history books do now about such events as the Moorish invasion of Spain, or the conquests of ancient Egyptians, or other takeovers. I think you did a good job at writing some valuable info we need to be reminded of.

Clarke M. commented Sep 9, 2006

It is true that what the West learned of Greek science and philosophy came from Islam - the most studied books during the centuries of Dark Ages of Europe, after the Bible , were Arab ones, as Avicenna and Averroes; and the Islamic cultural centers in Italy, Sicily, and later, Spain were the most advanced in Europe. The Islamic civilzation which flourush form China and India, Africa and the Miditerranean was the last true world civilzation, which linked East and West more closely than any since and included many religions and people living in relative peace and harmony. However its decline began in the the 12th century, with different nations advancing and others not. After the 15th century the flourishing trade and commerce and cultural exchange between East and West - from Europe to Asia turned to conflict between East and West. By the European Renaissance the West turned toward secularism and materialism and many Islamic countries, notably the Ottomans turned toward a rigid religious worldview. This led to isolation and stagnation and eventually the inroads of Western colonialism. While the cultural influence from Islam persisted, it was largely through less visible through enlightend groups and secret societies. We see the influnec of Eastern music for example in the waltz, which came from the Sufi societies, the esoteric non- orthodox aspect of Islam, akin to societies like the Freemasons in Europe, who had roots in the East.

Porgie T. commented Sep 9, 2006

Kevin...if it looks like a skunk, and walks like a skunk, I want someone keeping their nose to the ground to see if it smells like a skunk.

If I lived in Ireland, I would want someone keeping and eye on those that could be causing trouble. Here in America, and for most of the world, the terrorist question IS AN ARAB/ISLAM question. Like it or not, if a family of Arab descent, or of the Islamic faith moves into my neighborhood, I am buying some serious surveilance equipment, and figuring out how I can stake out their home and keep and eye on it until I have reason to trust them. As they say, fool me once, shame on your, fool me twice, shame on me...this American is not going to be quilty of contributing to our nation being caught with its pants down twice.

Mandi G.-I'm on the away team where's my phaser?? commented Sep 9, 2006

I have said this before and I will continue to say it.. the problem with this world is people and religion ALL religion.. there is no God, not ours, not yours, not theirs or anyones...

people use religion as a way to start wars, murder, pillage and fly planes into buildings.

Muslims... they twist their "Gods" words into their own words of hate and murder and teach their children the same. Just as the catholic church uses the bible to keep people under their thumbs... keeps them afraid of a vengeful God, keeps women pregant with 4, 5, 6 kids they can't afford. keeps birth control from women, lets their priests molest children..

religion makes me sick... the world would be a better place with out any of it.

Rome S. commented Sep 9, 2006

Who's lumping all muslims into terrorists ? I've not heard that from very many people. Only some extreme points of view. Islamic terrorists come from the religion of Islam. Not all religious Islam is terrorists, but all terrorists have been Islamic. And as far as I know, the IRA wasnt ramming anything into our buildings. Thats an idiotic paralell. You people who hate the idea of religion, just hate the fact that you have to have faith in something besides yourself. It means that there is a right and wrong. What makes it wrong to murder ? What makes it wrong to rape someone ? What makes it wrong to steal that which does not belong to you ? If you have no sense of moral connection to GOD, then why would it be wrong for me to steal your car and take your life in the proccess ? If I have no spiritual moral compass, then what makes immoral behavior, immoral ? Do you think some dude sat around ions ago and said, hey we shouldnt steal ? There are fanatics in every aspect of life. So condem the acts of all fanaticism, but not the princpals of religion. If we are spiritually bankrupt, then why not do whatever we want, to whomever we want, whenever we want. Right ? Get over your fear of having to answer for your moral behavior and live life as GOD intended. If you dont, then enjoy yourself now, its the only time you'll be able to.

Clarke M. commented Sep 9, 2006

The problem is people not religion.The founders of religions taught more or less the same thing to different peoples and the values are the same. Wars are all waged in the name of some religion , yes. For billions of people religions have provided hope and helped to restrain the worst human instincts, to maintain civilizations and prevent them from falling iinto barbarism. This current demogogy about the clash of Islam and the West is due to pathological and greedy politicians and their controllers. The War on Terror is not about religion. It's about the haves and have-nots and those who will never have enough.

Injustice breeds terrorism. Where did suicide bombing come from? The overwhelming use of suicide bombing for resistance in the past 100 years was by secular groups. It began to be used among Muslims in the past two decades. A small group of religious extremists, funded by the West as well as some Arabs, distorted Islam to use it.

University of Chicago professor and military historian Robert Pape argues the root cause of suicide terrorism is foreign occupation, not Islam. Pape compiled a database of every suicide bombing and attack--315 of them--around the globe between 1980 and 2003.

"The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world's religions," says Pape in Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism

Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers--a secular nationalist group--carried out 76 of the instances of suicide terrorism, more than are credited to Hamas. "Even among Muslims, secular groups account for over a third of suicide attacks," adds Pape, citing the Kurdish Workers Party in Turkey, which has used suicide-bombing tactics in its fight for independence, but maintains a secular ideology.

Pape also debunks the image of the suicide bomber as a crazed social outcast, explaining that the opposite is often the case. He provides examples of various expressions of popular support, and sometimes assistance, for suicide bombers.

A recent study by the Israel-based Global Research in International Affairs Center backs up Pape's idea that occupation is at the heart of terrorism. The researchers looked at 154 fighters who had come to Iraq from other countries and died during the previous six months, including 33 who died in suicide bombings. The study found that "the vast majority of Arabs killed in Iraq have never taken part in any terrorist activities prior to their arrival in Iraq."

Pape sasys, "The bottom line, then, is that suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation. Isolated instances in other circumstances do occur. Religion plays a role. However, modern suicide terrorism is best understood as an extreme strategy for national liberation against democracies with troops that pose an imminent threat to control the territory the terrorists view as their homeland."

Crazy Celebrity commented Sep 9, 2006

Of course most of America and the world's Muslims were opposed to 9/11. That goes without saying.

What's troubling, however, is the number of Muslims living IN America, in some cases American citizens, who did approve of the 9/11 attacks. Some were glad to see them happen but claimed otherwise publicly in order to be PC and/or not risk being attacked by Americans.

I do know of at least one Muslim man who remarked on 9/11, "today is the happiest day of my life", right in front of some stunned American citizens. I know of several others who celebrated the attacks in the streets of their cities and were confronted by mobs of angry Americans. The government didn't want the media to publish these stories in the days after 9/11, and urged the media to practice restraint to avoid panic and riots. I can understand that...

It's unfortunate that there are Al Qaeda, terror funders, and terror supporters living among us in this country. Of course this doesn't mean that we should just go around assuming every Muslim we pass on the street is a terrorist. In 99.9% of the cases, this won't be true...but, knowing the terrorists are out there sure isn't helping to make this country more welcoming and tolerant of Muslims in general. Something more needs to be done!

Bert Bigelow commented Sep 9, 2006

First, let me say that this is a very fine, well-researched article. Kudos to you, Ian. Second, I am appalled at the current 6.4 rating. It is obvious that the rating system fails to function when people who disagree with an article can trash its ratings. I will do my part to correct that with a resounding 10.

There is much in the comments that I would love to tear to pieces, but I know that is a waste of time.

I feel obliged to respond to a couple of the worst:

Mr. Sween's gratuitous insult..."very poorly reasoned" doesn't even deserve comment. The comment itself is a caricature of reason.

Rome S states, "If you have no sense of moral connection to GOD, then why would it be wrong for me to steal your car and take your life in the proccess?"

I have no sense of moral connection to God, in fact I do not believe in God, and I am a Helluva lot more moral than a lot of so-called devout Christians. Do you need a list? How long a list would you like? Morals and faith are not linked at all, as far as I can tell

I love those low rating Bert because I know they are prompted by petulance. Its the old "if you dont tell me what I wanna hear I'm not going to listen" syndrome. Its like the comment below about the size of my willie. That kind of comment says more about the person who makes it than the person it is aimed at.

Porgie T. commented Sep 9, 2006

Bert, you say po tat o, I say po ta to....in short, like it or not, your ten is not mine and vice versa. Which is why ratings are....well, over rated. As for your contentions that a lot of Christians have no morals, and are the least moral creatures walking this earth...on that, we can agree.

Charles M. commented Sep 9, 2006

Ian Thorpe,

Very well said. I enjoyed reading your post. Almost all of it is historically accurate, but some you did uses a bit of literary license to. However, there was something missing from your post. THE HISTORY OF ISLAM! Or more importantly how Islamic controlled countries, for the most part, treat their own citizens over the last sixty years, up to and including today, since they are no longer under colonial control. But that wasn't important to make your point I guess. Yet it still is important if we are to understand where we are today, instead of just focusing on what positives were created hundreds of years ago.

Just a thought!

--Charles Marcello

Abu Tarleyb commented Sep 9, 2006

Great Piece. God Bless You.

Thank You Abu. I think God would rather ignore me - last time we had a disagreement I won hands down.

Mandi G.-I'm on the away team where's my phaser?? commented Sep 9, 2006

Talk about proving my point Rome S.

You say if someone doesn't believe in God they are moraless and deserve to be robbed, etc... talk about bull shit religion talking.

Charles A. B. commented Sep 9, 2006

Religion shouldn't be attacked. Not all my muslims are terrorist.

"Religion shouldn't be attacked." Religion like anything else should be open to criticism and those who claim their religion is above criticism should be ridiculed. But we should attack ALL religions for their inconsistencies, hypocrisy and duplicity. Its important though to understand the difference between religion and a belief system.

"Wars are all waged in the name of some religion , yes."

Uh...anybody care to document that?

It's become standard thinking and speaking among many "high and mighty" judgemental non-religious folk, but is so utterly baseless that it must be renounced.

Most people in the world are at least casual believers of some religious persuasion, so it is possible to pretend that's why they war. In fact, very few wars are based on religious differences, just run through a list of the wars you can think of and you'll see. Greed, autonomy, land, economics, ethnicity, politics, power lust, blood feuds, etc...Yes. Religion...No.

I hate to say it, but even though your facts are accurate, it would take a moron to arrive at the same conclusions. While it is true that the Christian religion was hijacked, you fail to mention the hundreds of thousands men, women and children, that were put to death for their beliefs. The most recent occurrence was 9/11/2001.

You also fail to mention that while the roman empire was in decline, the Persian empire grew stronger. It wasn't the Muslims that were soaring above the clouds with enlightenment, but the Chinese. Throughout history, the common Muslim family has been a road map for dysfunctional. Should we talk about the Talibans treatment of women, or maybe the penal system.

I could go on all day, but your just too easy. Religion has never been a problem, it's been fools who use it for their own ends. God, has never started a war, only fools that have no religion.

Finally, you are one of those people, who find themselves above the rest of humanity, A God unto yourself. I have found that most men that have this complex are merely compensating for a small penis. You are really angry with God, because he neither blessed you with the mentality to be an intellectual, or a penis adequate enough to be a great Lover. May I suggest a large Pickup Truck.

Bert Bigelow commented Sep 9, 2006

Joe, you have some interesting things to say. Some of them make sense, and some of them don't.

Religion has never been a problem, it's been fools who use it for their own ends.

Pretty much correct, although I would argue that when the leaders of a religion do not denounce and excommunicate extremists who claim to follow their faith, then the religion itself is part of the problem. Islam has that problem today with its terrorists...and Christianity has an equal problem with its fanatical evangelicals and "Dominionists." Both of those groups are leading mankind over a cliff, and neither Christian nor Islamic leaders are making more than minor bleating noises in protest.

You single out the Taliban and condemn it, and rightly so. Why do you not single out the evangelical Christians and our God-guided president who has started a second Crusade (his word)? There is plenty of blame to go around for the current sad state of affairs. The problem, as I see it, is that Christianity and Islam are both aggressively proselytizing, both intent on making their religion the one-and-only world religion. As long as we have fanatical idiots like that, the earth is in danger.

Read Mandi's comment above. That is the angry voice of secularism, fed up with the atrocities commited in the name of faith. I agree with her.

It's time for the people of the earth to stop listening to the demagogues trying to incite us into mutual self-destruction, and to practice tolerance. Most people would just like to live in peace and raise their families. Their religion is a private thing. It's these inciters of hate in the name of religion who are getting people stirred up and angry. They are the problem, and I have to agree with Mandi...the world would be a safer place without religions.

manoj sanyal commented Sep 9, 2006

I agree Ian.

Excess of anything is bad.

Religious fundamentalism is the cause of all problems.

... and muslims are not the only culprits.... we all are irrespective of our faiths and religions.

Spiritualism needs to be encouraged and not the religion.

I have expressed my view point in my poem

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976785251 with the COSMIC SOUND IRRESPECTIVE OF RELIGIONS.

Cheers Ian!

Go to Part 2